One of the hardest aspects of training pointing dogs is gaining the ability to read the dog. It is almost like you have to think like a doctor diagnosing a patient. You do not want to be distracted by symptoms; rather you want to figure out the problem. A great example is a dog that establishes point and then begins to creep. Many trainers correct the dog for creeping. However, creeping is a symptom. The real problem is the dog still wants to chase the bird. Maurice Lindley sums up the situation this way: “Most people start correcting the dog for creeping which is wrong. The correction should be for chasing. Once the chase is gone, creeping is not an issue.”
I have been steadying two young dogs on quail in releasers this fall after foundation work on pigeons. Each dog is handling quail differently. The male points the releaser, and when I flush the bird, he sometimes chases like a puppy. Dogs like him are easy to work because anytime he chases, I use the e-collar to take away the chase.
The female is a different story. She points and then starts to creep. If I take a step, she takes a step. If I tap her to move up, she won’t move. Trying to stop this type of creeping will have you pulling your hair out. The only way to really fix the problem is to set up a situation where the dog chases. You need good flying quail that get up when pressured by the dog. I found some ragweed cover in my training field that was open enough that birds could run but high enough that they stayed in the area. I tossed down a couple of dizzied birds and waited about 30 minutes. When I brought the female into the area she made game. She knew birds were running and it got her excited. She knocked two birds in a row chasing both, and I corrected her with the e-collar. It will take a few more corrections to get her right but by focusing on the problem—chasing, and ignoring the symptoms—creeping, I am well on my way to having a stylish little bird dog that makes me proud.
Very interesting. I had never thought of it this way, but it does make sense. The more I read the more I feel could have done different with my Vizsla… but at the same time she is a challenge in that she is the anti vizsla and has a big mind of her own, especially in the field. But I am probably my/her own worst critic. Hopefully despite all my misteps we can get there.
Anne—we all take missteps in dog training. So much of training is a guess. Sometimes we guess right and other times we guess wrong. Creeping is easier to fix if you can get your dog to chase and correct him with the e-collar after he knocks the bird. Then it is real clear to the dog. Keep at it and you will get there. Good luck! Martha
So I have read more of your thoughts in this area. What about the training mindset that refers to prevention where able to send the message home too. How would you correct with e-collar, in the actual act of chase? Until they return or recall them in? Or with a “no” and bump on collar. So many ways you can “correct” with e-collar. Hard to know what you mean. I have done this, but will try to not stop her from chasing if she wants so I can correct rather than starting sooner with the creep and “whoa”
Thanks
This article was exactly what I was looking for this morning. I’ve got a two year old brittany that will take the slightest steps towards the bird. How much of a correction did you use when she chased? Did you whoa her initially? My Brit will creep slightly. Should I slightly bump him when he takes a step or wait on the chase? Thanks!
Anna—you are right about how complicated the e-collar stuff is. What I do is wait until the dog is actually chasing. I do not say anything, I just “nick” him with the e-collar. The nick is momentary stimulation and I’ll use it multiple times—nick, nick, nick. I want to use enough so he feels it but not so much that he stops dead in his tracks. You want him to roll to a stop, not scare him. A lot of times the dog doesn’t react to multiple nicks the first time but you should start to see him slow down the second or third time workout. This slow down is what you are looking for—each time you nick him he slows a bit. This is a rolling stop. Hope this helps, Martha
Jeremy—it is tricky to correct a dog with the e-collar when she has scent of the bird. A lot of dogs think the bird is hurting them and it can cause problems like blinking. The best way to fix creeping is to get your dog to chase and then correct her as she is chasing. I don’t use whoa around birds. I want the dog to learn from the bird when she needs to stop. So yes, wait for the chase and then corrrect her. I sorta briefly explained how I use the e-collar in response to Anna’s post. It is a big topic and hard to cover in a paragraph. Let me know if this makes sense, Martha
Martha, My dog is now 2 1/2 years old and has been steady to wing , flush and shot for almost a year. He had seen dozens of wild birds prior to the steadying process. He has bird work on planted quail occasionally during the summer and early fall. Now on wild birds he has begun crowding them.Last Spring he handled woodcock without his problem. He would point at at first indication of scent.. Now he points, starts to wag is tail, moves closer to the bird , points, moves closer, until the bird flushes. He then remains steady and watches the bird fly away. He does not chase. Therefore I can’t use your suggestion to correct after a chase. I will pick him up and move him back a few feet. I hesitate to stop the moving in with the e collar because of potential blinking problems and not being 100 % sure that he is working a bird. How can this be corrected?
Mike—from your description, especially the tail wagging, I agree your dog wants to knock the birds. Lots of dogs go thru this stage. Here are somethings you can try. Once your dog goes on point, hide from him but position yourself so you can still see him but he doesn’t realize you are around. Sometimes you have to stay hidden for 3 to 5 minutes and I will check my watch because it can seem like a longer time than it really is. On the first bird he may knock it and stop. Don’t correct him but continue to hunt and hide again on next bird. There is a good chance he will chase this one so be sure to be ready. Another thing you can try is when he points and his tail starts to wag, ask him to move up and relocate. This will get some dogs to take out the bird and chase. Hope this helps, Martha